PRESENT: PSCJ/Chair: Ryan. Members: Carsky, Kaplowitz, Mosiello, Swanson, and Wishnie. LEG/Chair: Stewart-Cousins. Members: Abinanti, Bronz, Mosiello, and Ryan. Staff: Hoch, Vita.

ALSO PRESENT: Legislator Ursula LaMotte-District 2; Lou D’Aliso, Commissioner-PSS; Richard Dienke, President-Westchester County Police Chiefs Association; Alan Schienkman, County Attorney; George Hosey, Chair-CBAC; Bill Randolph, CE Liaison; Thomas McGrath, Private Citizen; Barbara Strauss, LWV; -Liz Salvi, Law Department.

Mr. Ryan opened the Public Safety Committee meeting at 9:15 a.m. The minutes were held over until the next meeting. Mr. Ryan announced that the Public Safety Committee will meet next Monday, May 3^rd at 7 p.m. at the Yorktown Town Hall.

Mr. Ryan said he met with members of the Fire and Response Emergency community to discuss fire services. He, along with Dr. Jacknis and Kelly Connolly, me in Orange County to visit their Fire Service facility and CAD system which has been up and running for six months. The system was impressive especially the layout of staff and operations.

Chief Dienke thanked Mr. Ryan for the opportunity to attend this meeting, noting he would like the Committee to rely on the collective experiences of Association members to help guide the laws as they are created.

Mr. Dienke summarized the Association’s involvement with current issues especially recent meetings with community and religious leaders throughout the cities trying to resolve problems within the ranks of racism and bigotry before they arise.

*For additional information, a tape is on file,

Mr. Wishnie asked about the problems with training facilities, shooting ranges and the use of outside agency ranges. Chief Dienke said this is a major problem for many law enforcement agencies in order to qualify their officers, who at one time only performed this duty once a year. Mr. Dienke said the County does not have enough facilities to perform these services. His department has a small outdoor range that qualifies his officers several times a year. It costs a department more in overtime and training to perform this function.

Mr. Wishnie suggested the Association put a sub-committee together that would be able to review the problems and look into the needs and make recommendations to the Board for further review. Mr. Dienke was agreeable and will work on it immediately.

Mrs. Swanson asked if the issue was in the Capital Projects Budget, and Commissioner D’Aliso said it was taken out before he took office.

Mrs. LaMotte asked if the State Police would allow County agencies to use their ranges. Commissioner D’Aliso said Camp Smith was used, but became too costly, especially for the small municipalities.

Mr. Ryan agreed with Mr. Wishnie for a sub-committee. He said the recommendations would give the committee an opportunity to review the problem.

The Committee on Legislation joined the Public Safety Committee at 9:30 a.m. for the purpose of discussion Item B, a proposed local law to ban the sale and possession of toy guns.

Mr. Mosiello briefly explained the proposal. He said the concept began in NYC when a police officer had a gun pointed at him by a teen who was then shot by the officer, only to find out that the youth had a toy gun. When an officer is put into a situation such as this, he is prepared to expect the worst and reacts to a dangerous situation quickly.

also said that this legislation is intended to protect young people.

Mr. Mosiello displayed a realistic toy gun that he purchased for two dollars from a corner store. He also said there are real guns that have been painted to look like toys. He is asking for a ban on the sale or manufacturing of these toys. He said it might help this situation.

Commissioner D’Aliso stated that these toys could cause a dangerous incident. An officer can not take it for granted that a teenager has a toy or not. If an officer is in a stressful situation, they have to think and act quickly. The Commissioner supports this legislation.

Chief Dienke echoed the Commissioner’s statement and noted an incident where two teenagers who flashed a gun to impress some girls and were mistaken for real guns by the police. It this law will prevent a tragedy from occurring, then Mr. Dienke said it is a good proposal.

The Commissioner also noted that anything drawn from a pocket or a waistband that looks like a gun is realistic enough for someone to get hurt. What can be an innocent situation can turn out to be a tragedy.

Mr. Wishnie stated his support for this legislation, but would like to ask the State to make it a crime for a person to take a real gun and paint it to look like a toy.

County Attorney Alan Scheinkman said this proposed legislation is modeled on a New York City ordinance from 1950’s. In 1996, the Court of Appeals deemed it lawful for a locality to enact this type of legislation.

Mrs. Carsky asked if the law will cover long arms. Mr. Scheinkman said it will not, but the Board could amend the law to do so.

Commissioner D’Aliso said an officer can easily see a rifle and take cover, but a handgun, when drawn from a waistband or pocket, causes a split second decision.

Mrs. Stewart-Cousins asked if all objects that cause a reaction by police should be included in the proposal.

The Commissioner reiterated that an officer has enough time to see a rifle being it is hard to conceal.

Several questions were raised on the restrictions of marketing and sale and how this will be enforced. Mr. Scheinkman explained that the law will prevent the small corner store from selling these toys, and will send a message to others that may assist in enforcement.

Mr. Wishnie asked Mr. Scheinkman if the County has the authority to prevent the painting of real guns as toys. Mr. Scheinkman was concerned about the federal regulations with respect to real firearms and will study the issue further.

Mr. Hoch has been reviewing other comparable laws and explained that Westchester County has a strict pistol permit license law whereas an applicant would have to take a fire arm safety course and is not allowed to handle a real pistol. One way to get practical experience is a simulated "dummy" pistol commonly used by NYS police training and this should be included in the law.

The Legislators discussed the advantage of different colors for toy guns that would differentiate them from real guns. Also discussed were exceptions for dummy guns being used for theatrical purposes or training purposes only. The County Attorney said this raised other issues of penalizing the sale and possession.

Mrs. Bronz said if a friendly amendment enhances the legislation and makes it possible to enforce it, she would support the amendment.

Mr. Abinanti fully supports the concept of the legislation, noting that kids get the wrong message by allowing guns to proliferate and he would like to see all toy guns banned nationwide. He had concern with some of the language asking if air guns and pellet guns were included in the legislation. Commissioner D’Aliso said under the Penal Law, anyone under 16 was banned to have a pellet, BB, or air gun. The County Attorney will review the language and review the law restrictions and forward his findings to the two Chairs.

On the motion of Legislator Kaplowitz, second by Legislator Swanson, the Committee on Public Safety adjourned at 10:15 a.m.

On the motion of Legislator Abinanti, second by Legislator Bronz, the Committee on Legislation recessed until 1:30 p.m.